Simon at CAMRGB HQ was on Twitter the other night mentioning that he'd heard complaints about short measures being given out at the newly opened BrewDog bar in Newcastle. He also said that one person had had a request for a top-up refused. This also happened to a friend of mine at the opening weekend at BrewDog Nottingham. When he asked for his beer to be topped up,
the bar staff refused, saying 'We've been told not to.'
I'm sure everyone's aware of how weights and measures legislation affects this sort of thing, and in the end I'd say this is just a matter of poor customer service rather than a sinister conspiracy.
Having said that does serve as a reminder of a virtue of keg over cask from a stock-taker, or more particularly a pub company's, perspective. Casks are simply a lot more wasteful. Years ago I worked as an assistant manager to a guy who had moved back into running pubs having been a stock-taker for Scottish and Newcastle. This gave me an insight into how much more beer it's possible to get from an 88 pint keg as opposed to an 88 pint cask. Every now and again it's worth taking a mental step back and considering whether participation in the 'craft beer revolution' (or at least the 'un-demonising' of keg) might just be a case of 'Over 100% yield? Yes please.' It'd be paranoid to think it's always true, but naive to dismiss it totally.
Beer Advice... Pushing the boundaries of taste.
Surely the staff have to top up a measured glass, I think as you've said perhaps poor CS at play, I for one wouldn't pay up unless they did ;)
ReplyDeleteGood point about the wastage, not thought about that
Cheers Phil
Thanks Phil. I don't want to come across as having a go at BrewDog. I've no idea if this is any sort of policy of theirs and the post genuinely isn't about them. It was just that the comments coming through the other night got me thinking.
ReplyDeleteIt is poor customer service and penny pinching. Beer should be to the line in an oversized, lined glass and price should take account of that.
ReplyDeleteYes.
DeleteAny short measures are just cheating you as the customer out of your money. It's at best sharp practice and at worst breaking the law. Never been one to hold back on asking for a top up, me. And like Phil, I won't hand over my cash until I have the promised measure in my glass.
ReplyDeleteA good pub won't give you short measures in any case.
Never read such a load of rubbish in my life. You justify keg beer by its ability to cheat customers? Mind you nothing new in that. When I worked in the pub 92 pints were expected from an 88 pint keg. Back in the seventies.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you understand the point Gareth was making. He makes it quite clear that using kegs over casks to make more profit is something that he doesn't approve of. The blog post was drawing attention to the fact that this happens and he feels disappointed by this. As someone who is big voice on the British beer scene maybe you should think twice before writing something as rude as 'Never read such rubbish in my life' when that's cleary not true.
DeleteI think if you look at the Brewdog glassware the line is quite often quite far below the top of the glass so as to allow a good head. Not saying it was necessarily the case in the above examples but worth bearing in mind as they are certainly different to many glasses out there.
ReplyDeleteHi James, thanks for commenting.
DeleteI'm with Steve (see the comment above) in that I think lined glasses are great. I've also worked using them and, not to put too fine a point on it, it's a pain in the arse having to explain that what many people think is a short measure is actually more than they'd get elsewhere. If everyone did it, it wouldn't be a problem, but unfortunately it's the pubs and bars that are doing the right thing that incur most of the flak.
To clarify: Just because it can sometimes be an inconvenience for bar staff, doesn't mean that lined glasses aren't a good thing. I'm going to talk to Matt who's been good enough to respond (below) and hopefully we'll be able to put the world to rights. ;)
Hi, I am really sorry to hear you didn't have the best experience. Our glasses are lined to hold quite a large head and therefore can be misleading; all of our staff are trained to comply with legislation and to give the perfect customer service. I’m flabbergasted that you did not get what you asked for, having worked with the staff in both bars mentioned. Again apologises and if you would like to talk further about this issue please email me directly at max@brewdog.com. After seeing this we have discussed the issue and are putting a real focus on the perfect serve. Hopefully see you soon. Max Chater
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by Max, it's always good to hear both sides of the discussion. Email to follow!
DeleteIt was my experience at Brewdog Newcastle that my brother saw fit to blog about on his blog http://jeffpickthall.blogspot.co.uk/.
DeleteIt seems that part of the problem is that not all Brewdog glasses are lined and the bar staff seem unaware of the difference. Indeed my wife had a lined half glass an her measure was fine.
I'm sure it is just a localised staff training problem rather that a wider issue.
Cheers Steve. I think this is probably why Max pointed out the change in glassware, (see my 'Catharsis?' follow up to this post.) In a busy bar it must be confusing, and it does sound like they're trying to resolve that. Of course, if they're not, then we're liable to see this one run and run. If you want to speak to someone, and hopefully the Newcastle manager is as conducive to doing so as Max was, then I think they manager's name is Mark - if so, he's your man.
DeleteAs usual, a very balanced post, and quite clear if you take the time to read all the words in it. It seems Brewdog are one of those things we're expected to take sides on, which is bonkers. Speak as you find and keep giving the benefit of the doubt if it feels right to you.
ReplyDeleteSometimes, some people say some things that make all this seem worth it. Thank you.
DeleteGiven that several people have reported getting short measure, the staff reported having been instructed not to give top-ups, it seems quite clear that it is (or was) explicit policy to give short measure.
ReplyDeleteThis is also congruent with this blog post from someone who works for them in London: http://brightsbeertank.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/camra-poisoning-uk-beer-industry-in.html – quote '"Can you top that up for me?" Well, not really. I'm an experienced bar tender you see, and if you take a closer look at the lined glass I've given you, you'll notice that the beer falls just short of the line because by law there is an allowance for head. It doesn't have to be running over your knuckles.'
Now that people have called them out on it they're back-tracking. As usual.
Thanks for that Barm. Insightful indeed. As far as I'm aware, and this is how I've always understood it, there is no LEGAL requirement to top up any beer that's over 95% full.
DeleteOf course, this is a long way away from good customer service. I think about it like a zebra crossing. As a driver you have no obligation to stop for pedestrians who are waiting to cross, but it is a pleasant thing to do.
As Bill S. Preston, Esq. once said 'Be excellent to each other, especially if you work in a bar and want people to carry on spending their money there.' (I might have made the last bit up.)
I'm not sure about that. Every discussion about 95% liquid I've ever seen has been about pint-to-brim glasses. Obviously you can't get a full pint of liquid plus a head into one of those. Lined glasses are a different matter entirely. I don't know of any precedent that says it's OK if the liquid doesn't quite reach the line.
DeleteWhy nickel-and-dime your customers over a tablespoonful of beer? Unless you take them for mugs, that is.
As far as I can work out, the beer would have to be at the line or above once the head had collapsed, but frankly looking at this stuff made my head hurt. ;)
Deletehttp://www.lacors.gov.uk/lacors/ContentDetails.aspx?id=2423
And you're exactly right with the tablespoon of beer thing, why alienate customers?
7.Case law has made clear that customers have a right to ask for a ´top-up´ to their delivery if they are unhappy with the amount of liquid beer they have received in their glass at the time of service. Government continued to emphasise this in debates concerning the repeal of Section 43 in the passage of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill through Parliament. Indeed, and arising out of the judgement in Pepper v Hart (1993) 1 A11 ER, it may be argued that these debates may be cited as evidence of legislative intention. The BLRA Guidance Notes support the right of the customer to require and receive a top-up and state that such requests "should always be received with good grace and should never be refused".
ReplyDeleteOn the opening weekend of Bierkeller in Leeds I bought a 2 pint stein of the house lager. It was significantly short on measure and when I asked for it to be topped up I was told (rather rudely) "that's how we serve it here". I remonstrated with the manager who reluctantly topped up my stein with a different lager. It was my first beer of the evening and the bar man and manager took me to be drunk and treated me atrociously. What ever happened to good customer service?
ReplyDeleteConvoluted legality aside, they're in breach of the Brewers and Licensed Retailers Association's guidelines by even being reticent about topping up. Unfortunately that doesn't help you 'in the moment' so to speak. If the manager's not even prepared to be sympathetic then I think the only thing to do is vote with your feet!
DeleteI would like to jump on this old conversation.
ReplyDeleteI was refused a top up on a third measure in Brew Dog Newcastle a couple of weeks ago. I asked to see the manager, my request was refused saying that measure was correct.
I insisted that they pour the beer back from the wine glass into the measured third glass. This was done meticulously without spilling a drop. Needless to say the measure was proved short.
The re-poured back into the wine glass and dribbled a tiny bit more - still no way a full measure.
On attending Brew Dog again recently the same bar staff snidely remarked to his colleague that they should be careful "as this one always asks for a top up".
Unbelievably terrible customer service - I wont be back in a hurry.